by zeuzzz (Posted Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:17 am)
I quite agree with this, just look at alcohol, people have used that for thousands of years ... it produces short term gain for long term pain yet people still use that. With all sorts of nasty metabolites. Luckily the alcoholic cultures that used it too much or to excess have been selected against over time, even if the rich have always indulged irrespective of inheriting their power and money. We've probably even evolved a tolerance to the nasty effects of alcohol in certain cultures on the planet due to excessive consumption. Then there was the opiate boom in Victorian times. The massive sugar trade that resulted in slavery, etc. All short term gain for long term pain.
The weird thing about ayahusaca is it's not recreational in the slightest. People do not do this for fun. Yet these cultures still do it.
I agree with this too. It's amazing what we can now do with these compounds, ie, select the most important beneficial ones out from the not so beneficial ones. Like aspirin from willow bark. Or now we can extract the raw natural form of DMT from ayahuasca without having to go through all the hassle of drinking all the other pesky alkaloids. DMT with a prescription MAOI is called pharamahuasca.
In a few rare cases the natural is preferable to the refined, such as with poppy tea, where the LD50 is much higher than with the refined dihydromorphine or morphine. But you are getting all manner of extra alkaloids that you may not need if you choose the natural way.
However, if you were to ingest purely synthetic drugs like MPTP or any of the plethora of other synthetic chemicals you are exposing yourself to completely new drugs that have absolutely no history of human consumption. I'm not in the slightest bit anti drug or anti medicine, but as I say we have a legacy of use of these plant intoxicants that we can trace back thousands of years. And you can be sure that any culture ingesting MPTP would have been severely selected against over time, permanent symptoms of Parkinson's disease is not something that easily goes unnoticed.
Agreed here too, there are some 500 compounds in cannabis yet the cannabinoids that produce the positive effects without the negative effects have yet to be isolated. Δ9-THC alone (the main active compound) is actually a strongly psychotic agent, it's only balanced out by the anti-psychotic effects of the other CBDs. Hopefully one day we can isolate the giggle cannabinoid from the paranoia causing ones![:D]( "Grin")
More seriously though, from a medicinal perspective, hopefully we can isolate the anti-inflamatory, anti-nausea, anti depressant and anxiolitic ones in the not too distant future. Sailing off into exotic A-796260 or CP-47,497 synthetic cannabinoids seems way too premature to me when we have the natural product ready and waiting to test and isolate the active ingredients, interesting as their effects may be in experimental studies. Methinks a certain amount of politics comes into play about the unpatenability of easily grown and extracted alkaloids from natural herbs at this point.
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Kaepora Gaebora wrote:"Lots of people have used it in the past" is not valid in proving its safety, let alone with their 'intense knowledge'; do you think that tribes or other people then would really understand transient psychosis? Or would they reduce that to demons in the body and proceed to stone them or other painful rituals?
I quite agree with this, just look at alcohol, people have used that for thousands of years ... it produces short term gain for long term pain yet people still use that. With all sorts of nasty metabolites. Luckily the alcoholic cultures that used it too much or to excess have been selected against over time, even if the rich have always indulged irrespective of inheriting their power and money. We've probably even evolved a tolerance to the nasty effects of alcohol in certain cultures on the planet due to excessive consumption. Then there was the opiate boom in Victorian times. The massive sugar trade that resulted in slavery, etc. All short term gain for long term pain.
The weird thing about ayahusaca is it's not recreational in the slightest. People do not do this for fun. Yet these cultures still do it.
And natural vs synthetic drugs is not a valid argument as many drugs have been derived from biologic sources down to the chemicals that make the source effective in treating symptoms and disease. The other stuff is removed to reduce the amount of negative or unintended side effects and have more control over the concentrations. Once a lab can synthesize it without a natural source, they do away with the source. This happened with thyroid hormones; pig or other animal thyroids were originally given as prescription for thyroid problems such as Hashimoto's disease, but the concentration levels for the hormones inside it cannot be controlled, so synthetic was produced and you don't see much prescription of animal thyroids anymore.
I agree with this too. It's amazing what we can now do with these compounds, ie, select the most important beneficial ones out from the not so beneficial ones. Like aspirin from willow bark. Or now we can extract the raw natural form of DMT from ayahuasca without having to go through all the hassle of drinking all the other pesky alkaloids. DMT with a prescription MAOI is called pharamahuasca.
In a few rare cases the natural is preferable to the refined, such as with poppy tea, where the LD50 is much higher than with the refined dihydromorphine or morphine. But you are getting all manner of extra alkaloids that you may not need if you choose the natural way.
However, if you were to ingest purely synthetic drugs like MPTP or any of the plethora of other synthetic chemicals you are exposing yourself to completely new drugs that have absolutely no history of human consumption. I'm not in the slightest bit anti drug or anti medicine, but as I say we have a legacy of use of these plant intoxicants that we can trace back thousands of years. And you can be sure that any culture ingesting MPTP would have been severely selected against over time, permanent symptoms of Parkinson's disease is not something that easily goes unnoticed.
Sometimes they can't reduce the natural source to find out which chemical products are responsible for the wanted effect. This is true with the St John's Wart; there is a known effect on depression, but nobody knows exactly what compound(s) is/are doing it. Then you have side effects that are due to other chemicals interacting with the body (such as the increased risk of photo sensitivity) and reactions with other drugs that are probably unnecessary if the compound or compounds is/are reduced.
Agreed here too, there are some 500 compounds in cannabis yet the cannabinoids that produce the positive effects without the negative effects have yet to be isolated. Δ9-THC alone (the main active compound) is actually a strongly psychotic agent, it's only balanced out by the anti-psychotic effects of the other CBDs. Hopefully one day we can isolate the giggle cannabinoid from the paranoia causing ones
More seriously though, from a medicinal perspective, hopefully we can isolate the anti-inflamatory, anti-nausea, anti depressant and anxiolitic ones in the not too distant future. Sailing off into exotic A-796260 or CP-47,497 synthetic cannabinoids seems way too premature to me when we have the natural product ready and waiting to test and isolate the active ingredients, interesting as their effects may be in experimental studies. Methinks a certain amount of politics comes into play about the unpatenability of easily grown and extracted alkaloids from natural herbs at this point.
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